How a theater kid broke into tech and sold her company to OpenAI: Kim Beverett and her friend and former colleague Kelsey Peterson

[00:00:01] It's just so soul crushing to walk into a meeting, everybody sits down, they open up their laptops, they stare at it, they're obviously not paying attention. Like I can't, I can't. Yeah, I think every meeting is like a play for human connection. Like how can we be here in this room together and be efficient and get this done and also be a team, right?

[00:00:28] Welcome to Leap Forward, a show about founders and the people who believed in them before anyone else. I'm David Rusenko and on today's show, Kim Beverett, co-founder of the startup Software Applications, Incorporated. They built Sky, an AI assistant that was acquired by OpenAI. The acquisition price wasn't disclosed, but it was a substantial nine figure deal only a couple years after starting the company.

[00:00:52] I've known Kim for about 20 years and there's really no one else like her, especially in the tech industry. She spent 10 years at Apple and a couple of startups before that, but she stumbled into this world as a theater major, a total outsider. And she leads a little like she's directing a show, bringing the best out of everyone, creating something magical and doing whatever it takes to get there.

[00:01:14] Having a great idea is one thing. Being able to code it is another. Being able to execute and operationalize it is the whole thing. I've worked with her for over a decade and seen her like literally scale Everest with no oxygen multiple times over. I also talked to Kim's friend and partner in crime at Apple, Kelsey Peterson. In this episode, how an outsider made it to the inside in a way only she could. And now, Kim Beverett.

[00:01:48] Hi, David. Kim, how's it going? You so excited? I am absolutely pooping myself. I'm so sweaty. I also am a magpie and I look at myself. So, but then that means I'm like not looking at the camera. Where should I be looking? You could hide yourself. I hid myself, so I'm not even looking. What if I put a post-it note over myself? There you go. This looks so stupid. Okay. You can't see how dumb this looks. I'll take a picture of it later.

[00:02:14] All right. Well, Kim, thanks for being on the show. Before we talk about anything else, I actually want to start by playing something for you. So, I talked to Kelsey yesterday and when I asked her about how she'd introduce you, here's what she said. Kim is infectious with her energy and she is a naturally curious person and deeply wants to know what your little weirdsy is because she's got lots of her own.

[00:02:44] What are Kim's little weirdsies? There's so many. I mean, she will very honestly tell you that if the technology afforded, she would have a pet dragon and like a tiny one and she's super serious about it. So, Kim, we've known each other for about 20 years and I actually described you to Kelsey as being a tornado of charisma. I'm going to play you more of her a little bit later. But to start, I want to know, like, were you always like that growing up?

[00:03:14] Like, was baby Kim full of energy or did it come out at some point? You know, the really athletic kid, the really like full of energy, physical energy kid. And they're like, oh gosh, we got to put you in gymnastics or we got to put you in baseball. Uh-huh. Um, I was the very, um, theatrical kid and my parents were like, you're going to theater camp. Is that something you like? You just like, when, when they put you in theater camp, did you just take to that? Like, was it something that felt natural?

[00:03:39] When I was in, like, end of elementary school, beginning middle school, we had a house that had stairs that have like a platform. And I remember very strongly at one point, like, standing at it, like, delivering very strongly felt feelings about myself and the world and like, orating. And my mom, like, sitting at the bottom being like, what is this? Like, Evita? Are you on the balcony?

[00:04:05] Like, what are you doing? Like, I was, I just was the kid that everything was a stage. And I didn't, I wasn't like, oh, I'm dying to be in theater. I didn't have a lot of exposure to theater, but they just were like, we don't know what to do with this energy. We got to put it somewhere. You know, one of the things that I find so interesting about you is that even though you spent 10 years at Apple, you recently sold your startup to OpenAI for like you described, like a stupid amount of money. I think those were your words. You don't have the typical startup background. Like, you didn't come from Stanford or an Ivy League.

[00:04:34] Like, you know, you didn't study engineering, computer science or math. You studied theater at Arizona State. So, like, tell me, how does someone who studied theater at Arizona State go from designing costumes to building products at Apple? Tell me that story. Are you saying Arizona State isn't an illustrious university, David? Don't let them hear that. I was getting a MFA in costume design at the University of Texas, Austin. And my partner at the time came out here for YC.

[00:05:04] And I said, what's Y Combinator? And we, amongst ourselves, were like, oh, it's summer camp for nerds. You'll go out. You'll do your summer thing. You'll come back. One year into a three-year program, my program, he said, I'm not coming back. This is where I am now. This is where we need to be. And I wasn't having the best time with my grad program. At the end of the first year, they handed out a little worksheet of what you would make if you were, like, a freelance costume designer.

[00:05:32] And it was like, you're going to spend this much on fabric, this much on assistance, this much on your health care. And the math came out to, like, oh, you'll make about, like, $1.50 an hour. And I said, this is problematic. I really like eating. Eating is a thing I like. And I don't really see how that's sustainable on $1.50 an hour. So I was a little disillusioned. And this opportunity to come out to the great San Francisco came up. And so I just charged at it and landed here and went, well, what am I going to do?

[00:06:02] And so I typed into Craigslist costume design job. And there was an avatar company that needed a costume designer. And I was like, well, if I can design costumes for, like, humans, why can't I do it for 3D assets? So I jumped in and started doing it. And it was a startup. And it was a little messy. And you sort of do anything that's required to make the whole machine go forward. And so I started doing a lot of things outside of just the costume design, a lot of project management, a lot of product management.

[00:06:32] Didn't know what any of those words meant, but it needed doing. So I did it. And then I tripped and fell into tech. And then I went to another startup. And that startup was acquired by Apple. Tell me more about that startup. It was called, it was originally called Greplin and rebranded to Q. And it was Robbie, Robbie Walker and Daniel Gross. Robbie was my partner that had showed up at Y Combinator for his first startup. And he was doing the second thing.

[00:07:00] And I just couldn't help it, right? There were all these things that needed to be done. And I just couldn't keep my fingers out of the mess. I think this is, again, theater training. Like, theater is a team sport. Even if it's a one-man show, there is a whole world of people behind that one-man show making it happen. And then there's the person running the lights, the person putting you in a costume, the person running the sound. So that is where I come from, right?

[00:07:25] And so at the startup, it's like, okay, someone needs to do user interviews. Got it. I'll figure out how to do that. Someone needs to help us with this website layout. Okay. Someone needs to stock the sodas. Great. I'll stock the sodas. And so I jumped in and started doing pretty much anything that wasn't writing code. I loved it. So you've worked at a couple of startups, but then you start working at Apple. It's almost this tech mecca, right?

[00:07:52] Walk me through that first week, walking in the door for the first time, just starting to work at this iconic place. What did that feel like? I mean, it was all very exciting, right? Because we didn't really have plans to shoot for an acquisition. And in some ways, it's hard to think of something scarier than being a non-technical person going into Apple computer. What was scary about it?

[00:08:21] I think, I hate saying imposter syndrome. Because if I said I had imposter syndrome, then that would imply that I knew what I was doing and I just didn't have confidence in myself yet. But at that point in my career, I really didn't. Like, I had enough confidence in my ability to learn, but it's just this question of, is there going to be space to learn in that environment? It was just so, it was so much.

[00:08:49] I had this scarring moment from when I first started at Apple where I was, like, going around and doing, like, a listening tour where I went to all the heads of all the departments. And I said, hi, I'm new. I would love to help. How can I help? I sat in everybody's office and they were, like, so polite and kind to the new girl. And one person, he looked me square in the face and he goes, what can you do? And I went, oh my God. And I started, you know, panic, vomiting out all the things that I could do.

[00:09:18] And I get through my list and he goes, those are all soft skills. What are your hard skills? And my heart sank because this person is staring at me telling me that, like, the things that I was so excited to offer, like, didn't count. And that, you know, banged around in my head for a really long time. And it was a hell of a place. Wow. What did you work on when you were there?

[00:09:45] I started as a producer, thank God. Because they asked me when I came in, what do you want? We have this role called, like, an engineering project product manager. Do you want to do that? And I heard the word engineering and I was, like, not for me. But they had a role for producer. So I started out as a producer in Siri, which is, like, how do we get the design team to move forward and be efficient and work on the right thing and fulfill all of our larger product dreams?

[00:10:15] And so I started in Siri. It was such an exciting medium. Like, voice is just still an unsolved problem. It's a very strange interface, just talking into the void and hoping that it turns out right. Anyway, I loved it. And then I was there when we were working on SiriKit. And SiriKit was this way that you could extend to third parties to make Siri a richer experience. And I was like, this is the future.

[00:10:42] If we can, like, extend Siri to make it more broad, like, we're golden. I want to talk about the first time that you met Kelsey Peterson. Do you remember the first time you met her and what your impression was of her? I'm pretty sure it was at Grace Hopper, which is a conference for women in tech. And I had met another female colleague at Apple who had sort of just, like, swooped in and been like, ah, human woman, rare.

[00:11:12] Competent and fun, rare. We're friends now. And she had this connection to all the other smart, capable, funny, wonderful women in Apple that I just had not found yet. And Kelsey was one of them. And I remember being like, oh, oh, oh, this is a cool club. I would love to be part of this club. And I think that was the first. So I asked Kelsey the same question, you know, the first time she met you. And she actually said she heard about you.

[00:11:40] Like, you know, your legend preceded you. Almost 11 years ago, I was working on WatchOS at the time. She was working on Siri. And a friend of mine who worked on Watch said, I just came from this meeting with this incredible human. You have to meet her. And the story Becky proceeded to tell me was how Kim was on the Siri side. Becky's, of course, working on Watch feature.

[00:12:08] And they had to meet to discuss some opens around the feature. And so it was potentially a very contentious meeting. But they resolved whatever was open in the first 10 minutes. And then Kim stands up in a very small conference room with very serious corporate energy around the table and goes, well, that was so easy. What do you want? Becky, did you get what you needed? And points to every person individually and is like, we're doing so well. Let's, like, make sure that we've got everything we all need for the rest of the day and the week and the month.

[00:12:36] And then everyone, you know, is likely silent or says whatever. And then Kim slams both hands on the table and is like, all right, we're out of here. Which is, given how I think serious and corporate that office typically is, is very out of character but still super effective. And so I think it's very authentically Kim, too, right? Like, she's very serious about work. But she's also very serious in how unserious she is and how approaching it.

[00:13:06] Do you have any idea which meeting she's talking about? Or was that just like a regular day at the office? That is just such a regular day at the office. It's just so soul crushing to walk into a meeting. Everybody sits down. They open up their laptops. They stare at it. They're obviously not paying attention. Like, I can't. I can't. And so, yeah, I think every meeting is like a play for human connection.

[00:13:36] Like, how can we be here in this room together and be efficient and get this done and also be a team, right? I feel like when you kind of first met, did it feel like you had something in common? Like, you kind of shared something? Yeah. We come from similar backgrounds. Neither of us were computer science or engineering undergrads or masters. And both of us went to lowly state schools. I was a biology undergrad and she eventually did costume design.

[00:14:03] And so, like, those were not the things that were typically on the resumes you'd see. And I think the thing that I was so impressed by is how she was bringing more of her whole self to work than I certainly did at the time. I think I had, like, a work persona that was quite buttoned up. And Kim seemed to kind of say, fuck it. Like, I understand this may limit me entering certain spaces, but, like, I'm going to be myself here.

[00:14:31] And I think it actually, like, would be a detriment to you all if I wasn't. So I joined Y Combinator from a state school, too. You know, I went to Penn State. And, you know, as I kind of, like, reflect on what YC did for us, like, I thought that a large part of it is just a socialization aspect. Like, I kind of remember getting to the Bay Area. And people kind of treated us a certain way, like, a little bit of side eye, maybe. And then I just realized there's just a set of words that kind of, like, signal that you're part of the in crowd.

[00:14:58] Remember people say things like, no, that's non-obvious, right? Like, did you have a similar experience kind of coming in from a state school kind of into tech, into the Bay Area? Non-zero. Orthogonal. All, right? Like, all of these words. And I don't know if it's, like, state school or not state school. It's the in crowd, right? Were there any other signals you kind of noticed other than the language, like, things that people did or, you know, patterns of behavior?

[00:15:28] Oh, like, every party that I went to when I started. There'd be a circle of people talking and they'd be, like, deep in some technical detail of something. And, like, going hard on it and, like, a new person, me, hello, enters. And I'm like, hey, guys. And they're like, uh-huh. And then they're just back to technical implementation. Like, nope, we're just going to sit here and you are going to have to either get in the conversation or get out. So was there any space at Apple where you did feel like you belonged? Where you really felt like you're in your zone? Yeah.

[00:15:57] There's this concept at Apple called a BRB, which is a bug review board. So the closer and closer you get to the release, the higher the bar gets for what you can put into the release, right? Because we don't want to chuck in dangerous changes at the last minute. Like, we are shipping software to a billion people. So there's literally a board of people who would sit in a room every day at 1 p.m.

[00:16:19] And the closer you got to the release, if you had a bug that you wanted to add to the release, you had to go in person and argue your case. It's like the Supreme Court. So you would have to go and say, members of the jury, I have this bug that I think is really important to fix three days before we shipped to kajillions of people. Can I please get it in? And they would be like, what about this? And how about this? And what's the impact here? And what's the risk?

[00:16:49] And how's the user impact? Truly, BRB was notorious. It would make people cry. People would leave in tears because they were either shut down or the whole process felt so, like, threatening. And I loved it. And, like, I had, like, a good record. I had a good record. My bugs were often approved. And I loved it. And you learn so much in how to talk about what matters and why it matters and convince someone who knows very little about what you're doing to do something.

[00:17:18] So let's go back to what you did at Apple. I mean, you were there for 10 years. You started on Siri. Where'd you go from there? I worked a lot with the proactive intelligence team after that. And so proactive intelligence back in the day, you know, when you would get a phone call and it would say, like, maybe, colon, David Resinko. Like, wow, that was proactive intelligence. Wow, we guessed that it was David calling. It was very exciting at the time. And then in came Workflow. In came the acquisition of the app Workflow.

[00:17:48] And Apple knew that they were going to turn Workflow into an Apple app. And they needed someone who had experience with third-party APIs, which I had had through SiriKit. And they said, can you pair up with these two newbie, freshly acquired people, Ari and Conrad? And can you sort of hold their hand through this yearly cycle to turn their app into what is now known as shortcuts?

[00:18:14] And thus ensued the most wacky and exciting year of my life, turning it into an app. And then I got to, like, demo it on stage at DubDub. I actually want to talk—this is the perfect time to talk about WWDC. Because when we talked to Kelsey— I have one story on that, though, that I'm sure that PR will make me cut. She told us this great story of when you demoed Siri on stage, which, like, obviously it's a really hard thing to demo. It's live. There's microphone feedback.

[00:18:41] She's truly doing it on a phone, so it's really live in a giant auditorium. And she said it went really well. And after you left the stage, you got really excited and you had a very Kim moment. Can you tell me a little bit more about that story? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Okay. I come off stage. It's dark. Because I was just on the blinding bright stage, right? It's dark.

[00:19:08] And standing in a little row is David, the sort of producer for the whole experience, who I know very well. And then Kelsey, who I know very well. And then a third person who my brain has not caught up to processing. So I get off stage. I give David a huge hug. Give Kelsey a huge hug. And in my hug enthusiasm, I move to the next person in the line.

[00:19:34] And as I am going in for the hug, once I have passed the point of hug no return, I realize it is Tim Cook who is going up to speak next. And it's too late, David. I can't undo it. So as I get close to his ear, in my panic, I whisper, it's happening. It's happening. Out loud? Out loud. Into his ear. It's happening. And she is screaming and hugging him.

[00:20:01] And he is, like, standing there, like, won't someone, like, yes, great that it worked, but also, when is this going to stop? Okay. So in that moment, you're on stage at WWDC. I mean, you could argue that's the biggest stage in Silicon Valley. Like, did it kind of feel like being part of the in crowd? Or were you still kind of feeling like an outsider in a sense?

[00:20:27] It felt like one of the few times in my career where I was doing the thing I was trained for, which is, you know, talk to a bunch of people. I think the moment that I actually felt that I had, like, gotten in was when I left. Like, which was deeply surprising to me. Yeah.

[00:20:50] By the time I left, I was running that internet technologies org from the project and product side, which was mail, messages, phone, FaceTime, share play, networking, applied networking, user privacy, Safari. You know? So I told people I was leaving after 10 years. And people just started coming out of the woodwork saying, like, oh, my God, working with you on this project was so great. And the way you do this is so great.

[00:21:18] And I had this moment that, like, I think when you are an outsider, you might think that, like, the things that you do, oh, that's just a quirk of just, like, a way it's just how I do it. Because you don't see anyone else doing it that way. You're like, oh, that's just me. That's just how I do it. That's just, like, that's just Kim. And the more I heard from people mirroring back to me, like, how I behaved and how I got things done, I'm like, no, that's a strategy.

[00:21:45] Like, that's me taking the skills I have and turning them into something, like, productive and useful. The best version of someone on a team is when you can actually, like, get out what the real issues are. I think Kim does such a good job of, like, through a style that's all her own that I certainly could not adopt, of, like, getting people to reveal themselves and be comfortable to share, like, here are the good things, here are the bad things. Like, this is what I actually need.

[00:22:14] And she very much elicits hard truths sooner, if that makes sense. Hmm. It wasn't until I saw it reflected back that I went, oh, these are, these are real strategies. Up next, Kim starts her own company. That's after the break. And now, back to the episode.

[00:22:43] Tell me the story of starting Sky. Like, where do you feel like that story begins? It begins with Ari. He called me up and he said, hey, I'm thinking about doing this thing. Because we were, we were all so excited when, you know, ChatGPT was announced, right? I had started working on Universal Search. And then I started working on Siri. And then I worked with them on Shortcuts.

[00:23:07] And those are all, like, really key ingredients in, like, the magical assistant that we've always been promised. You know? Like, we've been, sci-fi has been promising this for a long time. And I believe in it and I've, I've always wanted it to be, to happen. So, fast forward, ChatGPT comes out, explodes, is the fastest growing consumer product of all time. And it's like, oh, my God, this might be possible.

[00:23:33] This, like, thing that's with you all the time and helps you get things done and really feels like the magic. It could be possible. And so, he calls me up and he goes, I think I want to do it. And he's talking about working with Conrad, his former co-founder at Workflow. And I'm just like, oh, I'm just a friend listening. You know? I'm just like, oh, that sounds so cool. I'm so excited. In my head, I'm like, hmm, when can I quit and go join them? And he's like, so, do you want to do it? And I went, excuse me? You want me? You want me to do it?

[00:24:02] You, the, like, dynamic duo, the two of you that figured this out and sold this company to Apple, you want me? You want me to do it with you? And I remember tumbling out of my mouth. I said, yes. I, yes. Like, which is not like me. I am an agonizer. I'm an agonizer. It takes me forever to make a decision. And I went, oh, oh, hold on. I don't know if, wait, where'd that come from? I don't know if, I don't know if I actually mean that. But some part of my soul was like, this is a yes.

[00:24:32] And then triggered the second guessing and the panicking and the anxiety and the should I do it? I have small children. I have security in my job. I have a good trajectory. And that panicking happened. And that's when you call in the council of advisors. And talking a lot on that council was Kelsey. What's your recollection of, like, the first time you heard the idea when that first seed showed up? I remember talking to Kim on the phone. And actually, we, like, talked about this more recently as well.

[00:25:01] And the goal of Sky is something that Kim has been obsessive and passionate about for as long as she has been working in tech. And she also loves working with Ari and Conrad. And they have such a history of delivering things together. And so they were trusted humans to her. And, of course, the idea was, like, big and juicy and what she wanted to sink time and energy into.

[00:25:27] But that first conversation was very much, it was a big conversation around, like, not the merits of the idea or the people, but, like, really, am I enough with them to be a co-founder versus just employee number one or three? I don't know how startups work. I only work for big companies. Do you kind of remember what you told her as she was thinking through that? Yes. Yeah.

[00:25:55] I mean, I just said, like, they can't do this without you, which is why they're also talking to you about doing this, because they know that. But Kim has an extraordinary sense of people. She also has the most management experience of people, both directly and indirectly, of all three of them. And she very much cares about not only the thing you're making, but also, like, how the people feel that are making it and how they feel about one another at the end of it.

[00:26:24] She doesn't approach things from, like, a turn-and-burn perspective, where it doesn't matter the cost of the people as long as we ship the thing. And that's absolutely something you need in a company that you want to last. And I also said, stop saying things like help. You're not helping them. You're, like, driving here and leading. You know, I think starting a company, I mean, it's a difficult process. Like, a lot of people question, am I ready? Do I need to do something else? Do I need to prepare?

[00:26:50] From your perspective, how do you think about that sort of existential question of, like, you know, should I start a company? I think for Kim, and my advice to Kim was, like, you've done the financial due diligence to make sure that, like, for your family, you're fine for, you know, the foreseeable future. This is something that you have always wanted to try. So, like, if there is a moment, this kind of seems like the perfect one.

[00:27:18] Our entire conversation was not, like, is this a good idea? It was, like, am I good enough to be a co-founder? And so, like, I think if that's your question, I've worked with her for over a decade and seen her, like, literally scale Everest with no oxygen multiple times over. So, like, is she good enough to be a co-founder? Like, that was the entire conversation. And I was, like, I have all the data. Like, you are absolutely so, like, you're overqualified to do this job.

[00:27:44] And I think she, I was standing on my balcony one day talking to her. And she said, you've always wanted to do this. You trust and know these people so well. When are you going to get a better chance? And so, it was a real, like, do it scared moment. Like, yes, you're scared, but you still need to do it.

[00:28:12] And so, she was the one that made me listen to my original yes, despite all of the analysis that happened between the first yes and the final yes. What, so you guys are, decide to start this company. Like, what do you set out to build? Like, paint the picture for me. Like, what kind of product are you trying to build? What are you trying to accomplish with the startup? My dude, it was so vague. It was so vague. It was, it was vague and huge.

[00:28:43] Right? Like, let's revolutionize personal computing. You know, just a very chill goal. But I think, I think we, we wanted to build something that felt, that didn't replace the work that you did, but felt deeply integrated with how you're already working that meets you where you are. Because a lot of thought at the time was going into the model itself.

[00:29:13] And a very rational first step to how to let someone play with this model is just slap a chat interface on it. Right? There's nothing wrong with a chat interface. But is it the best way? Is it the best way to actually have this thing that can help you get your work done? And so, that was the key premise of like, how can we take this incredible technology and make it feel completely seamless and integrated into your everyday actual productivity?

[00:29:43] Because at the time, like, there was no, like, it was just the chat box, right? Like, there was no, you know, no agents. No. And the term was even not there. And, you know, nothing clicking buttons, nothing using your computer. No. Like, that's kind of what you guys were looking to build. And we, it was like all the pieces were there. It was just the question of how to put them together in a way that felt normal for a normal human.

[00:30:07] Because in the early days, it was very intimidating and hard to use, like, AI to its fullest capacity. So, we tried like 10,000 different ways to make it easy to ask. Like, it's such a simple thing. Like, I want it to be easy to ask a quick question and not really interrupt my flow. It seems like such a simple thing. And we tried like 7,000 ways to do this. Hmm.

[00:30:33] Walk me through the chronology of, like, you get started. How long does it take you to, like, get to some kind of demo? Like, just walk me through what that kind of, like, chronology was like. Okay. So, we started in August. And then we finally sort of had enough people in place to really get moving in January. And then it was absolute UI experimentation on loop, right?

[00:31:00] Like, we have an idea for how to get contacts from one place to another. Let's try this. Let's live on it. Let's let our small population of dog fooders try it and realize, whoop, that doesn't work. And then try another version. And then try another version. June of 2025. Fast forward. We finally, like, we finally had something. We were, like, ready to share. And so, we put out a demo video. And it got great response. And we started, like, driving down the bugs to release it at the end of the summer. So exciting.

[00:31:31] And then, oops, here comes the call from OpenAI. Yeah. Tell me more about that. Like, I think a lot of founders really wonder about how acquisitions actually happen. What did that process look like? Um, so we did our demo video in June. And Sam, who happened to be one of our investors, said, I know how committed you are to doing this yourself. But can we just talk? Can we just talk? Can we just talk about options?

[00:31:59] And very reluctantly, we started those conversations. Which felt like the fiscally responsible thing to do to, like, entertain it. But we wanted the thing to exist more than we wanted an acquisition. We wanted the product to exist. But I think over, like, Christmas of that year, computer use had started becoming a thing. Like, let the computer click around and type just like you would.

[00:32:28] And for us, this is catnip. This computer use unlocks everything, right? And it was another very, like, tipping point moment of, like, for the thing that we wanted to build of that could meet you where you are, could do anything that you could do, was really that assistant that we've all been promised for so many decades. Computer use was, like, the last piece of that puzzle. And it started, like, I started to remember hearing about computer use in, like, January-ish of that year.

[00:32:58] And we were playing with it, but we were hitting all these, like, we just weren't close enough to the newest models, to the fastest models. Because we're getting it, you know, third and fourth handout as, like, an outsider. And so, the more we realized that the user experience that we wanted to build would be so much better if we had access to those, like, frontier models.

[00:33:21] The more it was like, oh, if we really do mean what we say, that making this thing, this product a reality is the most important thing to us, then this is the way to do it. We need to be closer to the source. I know the acquisition price isn't disclosed, but it was a very significant acquisition. When, did you have a moment where, like, you knew it was going to happen? And, like, what was that moment like?

[00:33:48] Well, a friend of mine said that all acquisitions fail three times before they actually happen. Which I think some people would take as, like, depressing. But for me, it was a very good reminder. Like, our deal did fall apart at one point. It was, like, just being prepared for that possibility that it wasn't going to work out was what my brain needed to, like, survive that very stressful time.

[00:34:15] I didn't know the deal was going to work out until literally, like, I did not believe it was going to happen until the final signatures were done. And it was irrevocable. I just, I just didn't believe it was going to happen. It just seemed too outside of the realm of possibility. More after the break. And now, back to the episode.

[00:34:48] I want to get your ideas on the future of work. It's top of mind for a lot of people. Like, where is work going? Especially in this new world of agents, AI. And, you know, it strikes me that you guys have some of the best perspective on that. Just given the fact that you are literally building the tools to help unlock this new future of work. So, I'm kind of curious to get from your perspective, where do you think things go in the short term and where do they go in the medium term?

[00:35:15] I think there could be something really interesting about who the audience is for software. Who the user is for software. So, for, you know, because software was hard to write, took a lot of time, took a lot of humans, when you were committing to making a feature or a product, you had to rationally make it to appeal to the broadest amount of people possible.

[00:35:39] And that means that your sort of lowest common denominator rating, that's a word, you're looking for the lowest common denominator in terms of what you're making. What's interesting, if you make it so that anybody can make software and make it relatively quickly and relatively performant, then maybe you're not making software for a kajillion people. You're making software for fewer people who are, like, more aligned.

[00:36:07] And you can make things that are really tailored to their experience. And, I don't know, in a wacky world, maybe you're just making, everyone is making software for themselves. And what, you know, a company becomes is, like, how are we making tools that make making things for yourself easier? Or making things for your smaller audience easier? I don't know, it really excites me. It really excites me.

[00:36:30] I think something that deeply technical value people take for granted is the feeling when software feels like magic. Because you live in magic every day, right? I have these moments where I go, oh my god, it is so cool that I got a computer to do that. And so, I just want to, like, get out of the way of that process. I just want to, like, not block that.

[00:36:58] What I think is so exciting about right now is that we're getting close to every person having access to, like, the magical feeling of creating something from nothing that software developers have felt for ages. You know, I think a lot of people listening to this episode are probably going to see themselves in your story of, like, wanting to build a successful startup. Maybe not coming to the table with the credentials.

[00:37:23] I mean, you've gone from a kid at a state school to building this amazing startup, selling it, working at two of the most iconic tech companies that there are. What would you say to people who have a dream of doing the same thing? It's a lot of luck. And I think it's a lot of saying yes. I mean, it's at this point probably stereotypical, the improv yes and, right?

[00:37:49] That whenever you are in a scene or you're in life, it's always affirm and add. Yes and. And I think that I've yes anded my way through a lot of scary situations or situations where I was maybe out of my depth. But my journey through this whole wacky thing could be seen as a journey of, like, motivation and reward and, like, what motivated me.

[00:38:19] I think as, like, a gold star overachieving A-plus kid, I always, like, in the beginning, I was like, how do I get my pat on the head? How do I get my gold star, right? Like, what is the system and how can I succeed in the system? And I think that if someone is considering the startup path, I think it's really, really important to understand that when you become a founder, no one is ever going to tell you you're doing a good job again.

[00:38:47] No one will ever tell you you're doing a good job because your job is always to do better. It's like getting on a treadmill and turning it up to 10 and never turning it down. So for me, that has been the journey of, like, figuring out my values and how I want to show up and the values that I want my team to hold.

[00:39:08] And knowing that at the end of the day, even on a hard startup day, like, if I have lived my values to the end of that day, then, like, I know I have done a good job. And I don't need anyone to be, like, at a girl. Well, Kim, as someone who's known you for 20 years, I think you've absolutely done that. You know, you've had all the success, but you've honestly never stopped being yourself. So I actually have one more hard-hitting question for you.

[00:39:38] Where are we on the pet dragon? You think that's coming? Fucking no. I don't know. Four. Like, someone somewhere has figured out how to make me a pet dragon and just isn't doing it because they don't think it's going to be financially lucrative. But, like, tell me that's not possible. To the dragon makers out there, I will pay a lot of money for a pet dragon. Well, Kim, thanks for being on the show. This has been awesome. Was it enough content?

[00:40:08] This podcast is brought to you by Leap Forward Ventures, an investor in early-stage startups. If you like this episode, we'd love your help spreading the word. Forward it to a friend or give us a rating wherever you're listening. This episode was produced by Kim Naderfein-Petersa and Becca Bressler. Craig Ely is our engineer. Rhys Lodano made our cover art. Music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. I'm David Rusenko, and this is the Leap Forward podcast. See you next episode.

[00:40:42] What if I'm not charismatic enough? What if you call me the tornado of charisma and I'm like, blah, blah. I have to say, I was very proud of myself for coming up with that description on the spot. I feel like it is you to a T. There's a whole lot, a lot going on here.